World of Speakers E.39: Mitch Jackson | Giving audiences what they want

MJ: Ryan, I can comfortably confirm with you and your audience that I am a human being.

I'm married to a lawyer who also happens to be a human being, and my daughter, who is finishing up her second year of law school at USC [University of Southern California]  is a human being.

So now, it's good to be here and I love the topic, I love what you're doing.

I follow you on social media and I can't wait to share maybe some of the approaches and tips that we use in the courtrooms, how I bring those to the stage to connect with my audiences.

And then, when I watch someone on stage like you just dominate the audience, how I take some of the things I watch you do back into the courtrooms to win my cases.

It's a pleasure to be here, and even more so it's a pleasure to be a human being.

RF: Yes, I like that.

The great thing is not everybody wants to be in court all the time, so we're going to bring everybody to court without the fear and anxiety of being in court, right?

MJ: Exactly, exactly.

Hey listen, I'm more comfortable standing up in court talking to 12 people, (a.k.a. the jury) who I have never met before— I'm more comfortable doing that oftentimes than walking into a movie theater.

It's kind of weird, but I just love what I'm doing and hopefully, by the time we're done, I'll share some new speaking tips that maybe members of your audience haven't heard about before.

RF: Yes, and when it comes to the power of persuasion, there is nothing more classically and traditionally….traditional then actual courtroom.

That is the original drama, that is where everything plays out.

That is where you have to persuade the jury who are there, open-minded, to listen and learn and it's probably one of the original stages that this country was founded on, that the world really comes together and says:

"All right, we've got a conflict, we've got some mystery, let's figure it out," and I think it's very translatable to the stage.

I'm excited to have you here, but before we get into speaking and all the tips, it sounds like attorney genetics is in your lineage.

Have you done like a 23andMe and found out that you come from a string of attorneys?

How did it all start? How did you get into this?

MJ: I would be afraid to find out what my DNA indicates.

Ryan, really quickly, it's interesting on social media how the tagline or the term storytelling has become the big thing over the last 5 or 10 years.

Lawyers have been telling stories in court using storytelling techniques to persuade jurors and make their point for hundreds and hundreds of years.

I kind of get a kick out of everybody jumping up and down when they hear the term storytelling, but it's something that good communicators have been doing forever.

My story is, I grew up on a ranch in Tucson Arizona, a blue-collar family, first one from my family to go to college.

On the ranch, Ryan, we had people from all over the world come and stay.

I watched my mom and dad communicate with the guests, very well known guests, guests like Walt Disney, John Wayne, Morley Safer from 60 Minutes, whose butt I kicked on the tennis court when I was 14 years old!

I watched them really connect with the guests on a human level.

And there was a lawyer that lived up the street and we used to do a lot of scuba diving down the Sea of Cortez together, my dad and Fred and I, he was a prosecutor.

I realized listening to his stories, "That's what I wanted to do."

Long story short, after graduating from college, I went to law school, immediately opened up my own law firm, met my wife in law school and we've been married for the last 30 years and she's been my partner for the last 28 of those 30 years!

So that's kind of my journey. I became a lawyer because I love helping people, I love making a difference.

But you know what, Ryan— it comes down to being able to communicate, being able to make your point, being able to be a good negotiator.

My stage is the courtroom, but as you know, I also speak around the country at lawyer conventions.

I'm speaking on Thursday at the State of Ohio Trial Lawyer Association Convention, I'm sharing some social media tips with the lawyers there, so that they can show their human side to their clients and audiences.

It's just been a fun journey over the last 32 years, but I'll tell you something— I know I'm doing something right.

Because every single morning when I get up, I'm excited about coming into the office.

I'm excited about helping people and I'm excited about learning a new communication tip, that's what I do each and every day.

So it's good to be here and that's my short story.

RF: Yeah, okay, that's a very cool story.

One thing that kind of perked my ears is— what kind of a ranch was that your parents had where you had all these amazing people come through your house?

MJ: It was called “The Dude Ranch” and so people from all over the world would come in and play cowboy for a week.

And it was a great way to grow up and meet a lot of interesting people, and really, to see how different people from around the world, different cultures, different professions, different industries— what makes them unique, what makes them different.

I think that foundation early on was what really did help me be able to connect almost instantly with jurors, and when it's all said and done, win my cases for my clients.

RF: So, in something like “The Dude Ranch”, were there situations where you would take on these alter personas and you'd throw on the cowboy hat and play a part?

Did your parents do that? Was there sort of a bit of a theater to it, or was it more just,

“We're going to go on horses and we're going to loop ropes around, and do stuff like that”?

Were there characters that you would take on, or was there a theatrical element to it?

MJ: It's almost like you were standing behind me while I was growing up! That's a great question.

I grew up on the ranch, I grew up as a cowboy, it was all natural for me.

But I'll tell you, as I got older, it was interesting.

I started gravitating towards traditional high school sports, I raced motocross for 38 years so I'd rather throw my leg over the back of a dirt bike than a horse, that's just what was more interesting to me.

Having said that, if I had to take 10 or 12 guests down on the ride, where I would rather be out riding my dirt bike on the local tracks.

I’d throw on my cowboy boots, my chaps, we would go out there, I'd saddled the horses and play cowboy and take them out for a ride.

So yes, there was a certain opportunity to learn how to be a chameleon, to learn how to give your audience what it is that they're expecting.

That's very perceptive of you, asking me that question, I've never been asked that question before.

RF: Yeah, because I went in undeclared in college, I ended up with a business degree and a theater degree and sort of dove into it, I was fascinated by the willing suspension of disbelief and this ability to take on different characters.

It's not disingenuous, a lot of times it comes with the ability to connect better with your audience, and if you have people that are coming to be cowboys, you kind of have to put on a cowboy hat and it sounds like that's what you had from sort of the truth of what you were.

This idea of carrying on a certain type of character, I can see how that lends itself to the courtroom, to the stage.

I mean, there's still the consistency of who you are, but being able to be aware of these different, slight variations in characters, sounds like you had an accelerated opportunity to do that growing up.

MJ: Sometimes a forced opportunity, in other words, even when I didn't want to do that, it was game on.

I grew up in a business that was 24/7. But it's interesting, because that's what's made me the person I am today.

Now, in all fairness, my dad was one of the Marlboro men on the commercials, and one of the Winston commercial cowboys, both cigarette manufacturers back in the day. My mom was on the cover of Newsweek magazine.

I grew up in a family where my mom and dad were pretty well known because of the guest ranch industry, it was one of the top ranches in the world.

And so it did give me an opportunity, and I want to use the word opportunity, it wasn't a burden, it was an opportunity to really learn some skills that I would not have learned had I grown up 3 blocks down the street at a neighbor's house.

It was fun and it did teach me a lot of the— let's just say different things that you just mentioned to the audience.

It taught me to be nimble, to be light on my feet, to be able to mirror other people.

But at the same time, Ryan, it's always important to do what you believe in, what are your core beliefs to always stand up, I always tell people, "Stand up, stand tall, and be loud."

Especially in today's world when it comes to politics, when it comes to social issues, whatever your thoughts or opinions may be, I'm a firm believer not to be quiet about it.

In other words, we only go through life once.

As a lawyer, I'm here to make a difference to help others and part of my DNA is to be loud and clear when it comes to social injustice and things like that.

I talk about these things when I'm in court, I talk about these things when I'm on stage and I absolutely share my thoughts when I am posting and commenting in engaging on social media.

RF: Two words are coming to mind— desensitized and energized, whether it's just because it kind of sounds similar, but when people grow up in situations that there's an overload of maybe the same thing, like The Dude Ranch, it's kind of like the Groundhog's Day, these different guests that are coming, you have to repeat and redo it.

But it seems like that can go one of two ways— you can sort of desensitized to that all concept or it could make you energized.

And just from your voice and from your memories and from the way you describe it, I think it's an interesting situation of a Groundhog-Day-type of situation, where you have these people coming in, you have this environment and you have this entertainment, you have these stories but then, that's repeated over and over, and you can take these situations and be desensitized or energized.

It's fun to see something like that in you that is constantly energizing, and it's not like you're dragging your ass around to the next spot.

It's like everything seems to sort of build on each other, and the fact that you love what you do, you wake up in the morning— I think people are missing that, maybe because they get desensitized to the routine, but it seems like you've found a way to energize that routine.

I'm curious what your thoughts are on that?

MJ: Well, I'm looking over at the far side of my office, I'm in my office right now, I've got a big black couch sitting up against the wall, underneath some pictures, and I feel like I need to go over and lay on the couch right now.

Because you are making me think back to my early years as to “who I am” and “why I am the way I am”— you're probably right about all that.

Moving out to California to go to law school, I knew one person when I moved out here.

I decided I wanted to become a lawyer, I loved spending 2 years up in South Lake Tahoe being a ski bum, working at Caesar's which was up there at the time.

But I also realized I wanted to become a lawyer so I took the initiative, I gave myself permission to move out here to California to go to law school.

I was afraid when that happened. I was wondering if I’d made the right decision, but I also knew that all the successful people I met at the ranch— and success by the way, in my opinion, were people that were happy with their lives.

They did what their core values told them to do and I knew that I could not spend the rest of my life in Tucson, as much as I loved Tucson, my friends and family are there, I knew I needed something different.

I think all of those qualities, all of those experiences kind of empowered me to take the risk to keep moving forward on a daily basis and to move to California, go to law school, open up my own firm.

You're down here in Southern California where I am, and you've probably spent time down Laguna Beach and there are some basketball courts down there at a beach called Main Beach, so they're right there on the sand.

Well, when I was going to law school here in Southern California, that's where I spent my evenings.

Each and every evening I was down at the courts playing ball, every weekend I was down at the courts playing ball, that's how I started building my client base.

Before I passed the bar I had guys and gals down there asking me,

"Mitch, when you're going to take the bar when you're going to become a lawyer, I've got a case for you, I've got a new company I need advice on."

So those were my initial marketing efforts, it was just playing ball, talking trash out on the court, but all of that came from the early experiences on the ranch, the ability to do that and have fun doing that.

And also, Ryan, one of my little secrets in life is I've never taken myself too seriously.

I mean, life's too short, there are too many challenges and too many things happening beyond our control, whether I'm in the courtroom, whether I'm on stage in front of 500 people, some of these things are just beyond your control.

So you have to learn how to roll with the punches, you have to learn from your mistakes, from those unexpected consequences and then you have to keep molding, building and moving forward.

That's been my secret and that's what I'm trying to teach my 2 kids each and every day, not that they listen to me, but that's the game plan.

RF: Ladies and gentlemen, a human lawyer who doesn't take himself too seriously, and builds relationships and clients by talking trash on the basketball court, is a storyteller and is somebody who is— it really sounds like you paying it forward, I mean, you're instilling the same things within your own family unit.

With this concept of your bridging this gap to the world wide web, I mean, you're inspiring a lot of people who are out there to stand up for what they want, to see the change they want to see and then empowering them with their voice.

Let's transition into the voice, because it is your money maker and it is the vehicle in which you can help create the social change, the vehicle in which you can defend somebody, the vehicle in which you can prosecute somebody.

How important is the voice when it comes to really just like your existence as a human to move that dial forward?

MJ: It's probably one of the most important business assets I have, and I wish I had known this back in high school and college, Ryan.

I spent more time in high school and college playing sports and racing motorcross, flying hang gliders, windsurfing….than I did studying.

I'm lucky to be where I am today, but I will tell you, over the last 32 years of practicing law, almost on a weekly basis, I've been reading books, I study communication techniques, I watch the best speakers in the world doing TED Talks and things like this.

I've always tried to perfect who I am, what I do, and how I do it.

Now, I will tell you that I've never been accused of being the sharpest knife in the drawer, but to effectively communicate, you don't need to be.

In other words, what you need to do is speak from the heart, you need to tell the truth, you need to be passionate about the position or the client that you're representing, or the position that's at issue in a court of law.

Those have been my secrets, once I realized that it's okay not to have to put together a perfect sentence, it's okay to talk in a scrambled fashion for 30 minutes during an opening statement, what's even more important is obviously put in the work.

My secret in life, Ryan, is to outwork the other side. That's my secret.

When I see young lawyers down at the courthouse, and they'll say, "Mitch, where did you learn how to—" actually, they will say,

"Mr. Jackson where did you learn how to give a closing argument like that?"

They're looking for an app, they're looking for a pill, they're looking for an easy solution.

I'll tell them, I'll say, "Well, you know, 25 years of doing this, 30 years of doing this, it's just something that you get better and better at over time."

But what I realized after my first 4-5 years of practice, Ryan, is not to try to be like anyone else, not try to speak like anyone else, not to try to be like who I thought was a gust lawyer in town and try to come across like him or her.

 

But to just give myself permission to be myself. To speak using words that jurors are going to understand, to be honest, and once again to speak from the heart, that's been my little secret.

I kind of forgot what the original question was? But that's where I ended up in my answers.

 

RF: That's right, I'm here to keep you on track and you actually set yourself up for me to set this whole thing up.

The initial concept was how important is the voice in a general sense.

You talked about your biggest business asset, you wish that you could have known that earlier.

Forward stuck out— normally, it's only 3 because 3 is the most amazing number so we can even throw one of these out to make it 3.

But you mentioned a couple things: heart, truth, passion, and positioning.

I would love to dig in a little bit on your advice, from a technical business app that everyone is looking for, understanding that it's the hustle, and hard work that really makes the app come alive for the shortcut.

What are the tricks that you use using your voice to communicate heart, to communicate truth, to communicate passion and the position?

We'll hit each one and unpack them.

Because anybody who's listening to you so far, you are leading with your heart.

How do you communicate the heart through your voice?

Are there any tactics or specific things that you've learned that you wish you would have known in highschool and now we can help those people know without the 30 years of growing?

MJ: Absolutely.

Maybe starting with what I do in court in front of a jury and then understand that everything I'm talking about in court would work from the stage also.

It'll work in the boardroom.

It'll work during a negotiation at an arbitration office.

It all starts with being prepared and giving yourself permission and empowering yourself to leave your notes on the counsel table, on the lectern, to walk away from the lectern over in front of the jury.

And to use your eyes to look each and every juror in the eye when you speak, when you're answering their questions, especially during jury selection or what we call "voir dire".

It's to ask open-ended questions and then while you're asking the question that you really want to know the answer to, stop talking, and start listening.

It's about listening more than you speak, but while you're listening, look that juror in the eye and use your facial expressions, and your body language to show that particular juror that you care as to what he or she is saying.

Even if you disagree with what they're saying, show them that you care, show them that you're listening.

I think that's the first step in accomplishing that particular goal.

It's using your eyes, it's being prepared, and it's showing that you care and it's actively listening.

RF: This whole idea of leaving the notes, I think that's really cool and like leaving lectern we might have heard before.

But this concept of leaving the notes, real quick, do you find value personally in writing the notes so that you have some sort of process, and then you leave them?

Tell me about your note process?

MJ: When I, for example, have to give an opening statement, and I personally feel that most of my cases are won during jury selection and opening statements, those are the first 2 opportunities in a jury trial where I can actually communicate directly with the jury.

And most of the time I know whether or not I've won the case by the time I'm done with my opening statement. You just know, okay?

RF: And do you think the same thing translates to a stage when you talk with your audience? Is your opening statement or your intro really where you get them?

MJ: I think so, Ryan.

What we need to understand is right now, everyone's biggest assets are time and attention.

Nobody has enough time, nobody can either get enough attention, or give enough attention.

Because of that, whether I'm in court and my audience is a jury or my audience is a traditional audience while I am speaking from the stage, everything I do is about time and attention.

It's about finding that intersection of timing, trust, need.

When I'm speaking, when I'm picking a jury, when I'm giving an opening statement, it's respecting the limited time my jurors have because they don't want to be there, but it's also making my point, it's also about engaging, entertaining them, grabbing their attention.

The first thing I usually try to do whether I'm picking a jury or giving an opening statement or when I take the stage, the first thing I try to do is immediately let that audience know that they're here for a reason, I'm here for a reason, and I'm not going to waste their time.

The way I do that is oftentimes, I'll start off with a short one or two-minute captivating story that's relevant to the topic I'm speaking about.

Or it's relevant to the audience, it's relevant to the audience's needs, that's why I'm there, and the topic I'm speaking about is relative to that.

Oftentimes, it'll be sharing an interesting statistic, maybe a breaking news story that relates to what we're talking about and how I'll be tying in the trial or how I'll be tying in my speech into that breaking news story, that particular concept.

It's immediately grabbing the audience's attention.

And then, once I do that, Ryan, what I'll normally do both in trial and from the stage, is after a couple of minutes of doing that, I'll take a step back, I'll thank them for being here.

I'll thank the people who introduced me, let them know that at the end of the presentation I'll be opening up for questions and then I dive into my presentation.

So I try to take control over the situation in the courtroom or from the stage.

I try to pre-answer all of their questions because that's what a lot of people want to know if they can answer questions— my jurors do, which they can't during a trial, oftentimes, and people in the audience during a traditional stage presentation and then dive into the content.

That seems to work really well for me— you're taking them by the hand, and you're letting them know what's going to happen, obviously then you share your content, you put on your trial, you share your presentation from the stage.

And then when it's done, I open up for questions and when that's done, I give my closing argument in court.

I want to be the person having the last say, I want to make sure I plant that seed, I want them to leave the courtroom and go back into the jury deliberation room remembering exactly what I said and what I need them to do.

When it comes to speaking from the stage, I want to wrap things up with a 2 or 3-minute story, quote, statement, call to action, whatever it might be, I want to take charge of how things are wrapped up.

And that works really, really well.

But here's the thing— a lot of people, Ryan, will talk about, especially how social media, there's nothing more important than telling a good story. It's all about telling a great story.

Yeah, that's really, really important but there's something that's even more important, in my opinion, than telling a good story.

And that is empowering your audience.

I can tell the best story in the world, but if my jury isn't empowered, and if they don't think they have permission to take the desired action, then that 2-week jury trial is going to be for naught.

If I'm speaking from the stage and I tell a great story or stories during my presentation, but in the end, I haven't empowered my audience to take action— then it's been a complete waste of time.

So I really want people to think about telling good stories, but at the same time, empowering their audience to take action— it's so critically important.

RF: That is a lot to unpack there.

One of the things that seem to be notable was your conscience of time and timing and the amount of information and the nugget delivery.

Do you feel, do you think that being aware of this, "Squirrel, squirrel!" kind of concept that we have, the jurors when they're not listening to you, they're probably scrolling through, looking for some stopping content or they are reading an article headline, feeling like they read the whole thing.

Do you feel that the culture we're experiencing right now from an attention, because you talked about time and attention, how are you leveraging what you're seeing on social media and is that influencing the way that you are communicating with the jury or an audience?

MJ: It does influence how I communicate and I know for a fact it influences how my jurors listen to what I'm saying.

Just so we're clear, when I'm trying a case, the jurors are not allowed to have their phones out, they're supposed to sit, listen, and take notes.

We all know that during bathroom breaks, during lunch, when they go home at night, they pull out their phones and even though the judges instructed them not to independently investigate or go online and read about the case, because a lot of my cases are high profile cases, I know for a fact that they do.

They are not going to admit to it, but the reality of life as you just explained, that's the way people operate in today's digital world.

So, with all of that in mind, what I try to do and what you've seen speakers do from the stage is, if I'm trying to make a point and I can make that point in 45 seconds or a minute and a half, then that's what I do.

I don't spend 5, 10, or 15 minutes trying to make the same point with multiple diagrams, multiple examples, multiple witnesses, multiple comments.

What I try to do is be short, concise and to the point, and at the same time balancing the need to accomplish that goal of communicating that point to my audience, whether it's a jury or a traditional audience.

It's just understanding the new dynamic of communication, it's understanding that people don't need to be told the same thing over and over and over again, especially in a court of law, they're not going to like it, they don't want to be there, they don't even like me as a lawyer to start off with.

The last thing you want to do is anything that's going to rub them the wrong way and start having them daydreaming in the middle of the case instead of listening to the evidence.

I try to keep things popping, you know what I mean, I always try to keep things shaking, new witnesses, I catch everybody by surprise, by calling somebody that nobody expects, showing a diagram, a PowerPoint.

Maybe something physical, maybe it's me rolling on the floor to show how somebody was hit by a vehicle and was knocked to the ground or somebody was assaulted in a bar fight.

Whatever it might be, there are all types of ways to immediately shock or grab the audience's attention in a genuine way so you're making your point.

And I found that to be something that they actually appreciate and I know that's the case because after our trials, Ryan, we get to talk to our jurors.

The judge tells the jurors, "If you'd like to speak to any of the attorneys, be down in the lobby on the first floor, they'll be done in about 15 minutes, you can ask them questions."

And so I always ask my jurors, even when I win a case, and I win most of my cases, but,

"What can I do to more effectively represent my clients? What could I have done differently?"

And usually, the jurors will say something like, "You need to speak more slowly. You did a great job, but you talk so fast, you need to speak more slowly."

So guess what I do during the next case— my next trial a month later, I'll speak a little bit more slowly.

After the trial, I come down and the jurors are like, "You need to speak faster".

RF: This is interesting, so what I'm hearing is that there is an awareness of the current state of how people like to receive information.

And you're not only playing on that, but you're also actively looking for feedback along the way.

You'd mentioned earlier, you'll go watch a TEDx Talk, or a TED Talk or somebody on stage at a major conference and you'll be looking for those elements to bring into what you're doing.

I love the fact that it's just constantly evolving, rather than just sort of stuck in a certain amount of ways and you are like, "No, this is how we are doing it."

MJ: No, you've always got to keep an open mind, keep open ears, and listen to what your audience wants, and then give them what they want.

In today's world, people want what they're experiencing on a daily basis, whether it's social, whether it's the evening news, they expect us to deliver a product.

In my case: my voice, my words, my client's case a certain way and you've got to deliver that product that way.

If you want a million dollar verdict, then you have to give your jury a million dollar presentation, it really is that simple.

RF: What's your favorite social media platform?

MJ: My favorite social media platform is probably live streaming and live video, whether it's Facebook live, whether it's periscope a.k.a. Twitter live.

I'm a big fan of a live video because it allows me to connect with people, look them in the digital eyeballs, engage in real time, and for some reason, it's just been a game changer for my firm.

Back in 2011, there was a platform called Spreecast, and it was put together by Jeff Fluhr who was the co-founder of StubHub. Jeff sold StubHub, got a little bit bored, I think at 26 or 27 opened up Spreecast.

And the Spreecast platform gave me a chance to connect with people like Katie Couric, Anderson Cooper, Peter Diamandis, Gary Vaynerchuk and a lot of other very well-known people.

And had it not been for that live video platform, that wouldn't have happened.

Fast forward to today, what we try to do on a weekly basis, 2 or 3 times a week is we jump on live video.

Wherever I am and whatever I'm doing, whether I'm down at the beach taking a run with my smartphone, or if I'm here in the office, we'll do shows.

It will newsjack breaking news stories, or we'll answer questions that consumers have.

It's just a really powerful medium to connect in real time with people that might not otherwise have access to me or to a guest who I have on the show.

Live streaming in general but I'm a big fan of Twitter, Instagram, SnapChat, Facebook... I think those are my favorite platforms.

RF: When you're talking about the content that you're delivering in different packaging, it makes me think of these feeds on these different channels and how people are using basically:

• the space,

• the characters that they have,

• the opportunity for an image,

• a video,

• a live stream

and at the core, people are trying to deliver messages.

But this idea of being fluid and looking for new best practices and being aware of your audience are almost like different filters or different ways that people are being creative, whether it's cinema graph, or whether it's a moving graphic or 30 seconds of an audio showing that's behind it.

I'm really having this connection between the ways that you are— I don't want to say manipulating, because people are going to think lawyers = manipulating, no, it's that you're taking advantage of the different types of I guess filters or different ways of being creative with the content.

But at the end of the day, these are words that you're stringing together, a post is a series of words and emojis and images.

But at its core, it's just face value what it is.

The dynamics come when it becomes live or you use a certain emoji string of emojis, or you're grabbing them with a hook sentence in the beginning or it's the opening.

What is exciting for me is that it becomes an even playing field, where everybody has the same amount of characters on Twitter, but how are you going to put those together in a way that resonates with the audience and gives them empowerment, gives them calls to action.

Just as you're talking, I'm imagining the ways that you can manipulate the same type of content to just drive harder and drive further out there into the world.

MJ: I love that you talked a little bit more in detail about this.

I actually look at it as different ways to build meaningful long-term relationships. Everything you just described I look at as building relationships.

One of the biggest challenges I see is, when I speak around the country and everybody associates what they want to do with their business or with their profession, to marketing it on social media.

And I don't believe that marketing on social media works.

I don't like being marketed on social media, I don't like being disrupted, but what I do like on social media is building long-term, quality relationships.

And so, by using all of the tools and approaches you just mentioned, what I think of it is as I'm building relationships, I'm building new referral sources, I'm making new connections.

Because a lot of my online social media stuff, Ryan, it's about my why. It's not about my law firm.

My little secret is I share my why. on social media.

Why  do I get out of bed in the morning?

Why did I become a lawyer?

Why  do I enjoy doing the things that I'm doing.

My whys just briefly, whether it's community service to the Rotary Club, I'm a fourth generation Rotarian, I'm a past president my club and past interact district governor here in Orange County, that's my why , I like helping people.

My why is working out and running and flying my drones.

My why is being on the sidelines of my son's soccer games or track needs to Dannyhill's High School or going up and watching my daughter at USC compete in moot court.

Those are my whys, and when I share content about those whys, which between you and me, of course, I'll appropriately integrate what I do for a living, I'll mention that I'm a lawyer, but I'll never be quite the lawyer as my daughter and her friends after watching them in moot court, right, and I really do mean them, they are just totally impressive kids.

But yes, there's an integration there, but what I found on social is I build relationships because I share my why, it's okay as a professional to show your human side. In fact, you must show your human side if you want to be effective on social.

By doing that, you're building relationships.

And one thing I've noticed over the years, because our first website went up in 1996, I'm an early user of the internet, digital platforms, and especially social media.

The truth of the matter is social media platforms will come and go, relationships will last a lifetime.

You have to focus on the relationships, you have to engage on the platforms in a way that your audience expects you to engage on those platforms, they are all different.

But as long as you cross out the M for marketing and put in a big capital R for relationship, that's where the magic happens.

RF: I dig that.

As soon as you were saying you cross out the M and you put the R, it's remarketing— marketing but you add an R for relationships, and it becomes remarkable.

There's some sort of remarket-ibal-necity-ment there. I like it.

MJ: We're going to need to hashtag it.

RF: Absolutely.

Well, this is a great sort of transition into helping people understand how they can help to monetize their why.

The message that you have is closely tied in with your why and it also has to do with what you're doing and who you are, and all of that.

But I'm guessing your answer on how to monetize your message is to not try to monetize your message and to just build a relationships.

So I'd be curious to know how you have found success, from the basketball court to a live platform?

What are some of the things that you've done to build relationships that have been most effective to get you an opportunity to speak in front of thousands of people?

To get in front of these influencers that you then build better and real relationships with, and that then creates this larger halo on top of it all.

What are some of the things that actually work to help monetize?

Knowing that you're not going money first, but how would you help people reverse engineer the success that you have had when it comes to communicating?

MJ: The first thing I would just share with everyone is it's a long-term play.

The reality is, I know the success I've had as a lawyer and the success that I'm enjoying online in the relationships I'm building, it's a long-term play, it takes time.

So, that's the first thing, so you have to give yourself time by being consistent, adding valuable content that helps other people, listen 70% of the time, maybe speak 30% of the time.

That's what seems to work really well for me.

But, having said that, and I wish I could claim credit for this, one of my favorite books was a book written in 1937 by Dale Carnegie and it's "How to Win Friends and Influence People."  

RF: It's such a great book.

MJ: Yeah, and I'm sure everyone in your audience is familiar with this book, but here's the thing— it's more applicable today because of social media and digital, than ever before.

If you take Carnegie's approaches, using people's names, asking open-ended questions, being a good listener, being sincere, being strategically transparent.

RF: Smiling more, that's my favorite one.

People ask me like, "What's the best tip of advice", and I throw back that book and I go, "Just smile more" like the world opens up.

MJ: I love that, there's the old proverb, "A man without a smiling face must not open shop."

I think that applies in the real world, but it also applies to social media.

If you're not in a good mood, if you're not positive and energetic and smiling while you're doing your podcast or writing that blog post or sharing on Twitter, probably best to take a step back, do what I call as a push away and do something else for a while, because people pick up on that.

Stay positive, use a lot of the techniques that Dale Carnegie wrote about and that's been my secret, it works really, really well.

RF: Okay, and I'm going to tweet your proverb, and maybe this is one that we can claim.

"A man or a woman without a smile on their face," say yours again, I'm going to do it because I've got something—

MJ: Mine's actually taped to my monitor because I look at it every day and it's an ancient Chinese proverb, but I think we do need to update it.

The actual quote is, "A man without a smiley face must not open shop."

RF: Okay, here, "A man without a smiling face should not get a headshot."

MJ: Well that's the other thing, look at some of the headshots out there, especially with professionals, they look like someone just had their big toe hit with a hammer.

As Guy Kawasaki talks about, “Show your big, beautiful smile with the crow's feet right across your face, maybe with a bright shirt on. Show the world your big smile, who you are, what you believe in, all on a picture.”

I mean, that's the first step on social media, right, because we never have a second chance to make a good first impression, and oftentimes our profile pictures are the first thing that people see.

Make a good impression on people.

RF: Yeah and a smile is a key to that.

One thing I'm curious about from building relationships and having this core messaging as content, what do you feel about the ratio between sharing your why and then sharing sort of the successes along the way?

Because there are some people who are sharing their why but it's maybe in front of an expensive car, maybe that they're leasing, or in front of a house that maybe isn't theirs.

And there's this sort of just as much as storytelling is becoming more and more popular so is authenticity and there seems to be this balance that people are playing with to where it's one thing to say,

"Here's why I am passionate about sharing my message."

It's another one to say, "Look at me on this stage, I'm doing this, I'm doing that."

But to some extent, you have to share your small victories and be excited about it.

Is there a ratio of sharing success to sharing your why that you find works so people are intimidated by you and your successes but actually are excited about your success and your why?

MJ: That's such a great question.

The ratio that I found that works well for me as a lawyer is about 80-20.

80% of what I share is about other people, it's showing my interest in what other people are doing and sharing other people's content.

It's about sharing my why as a dad, as a husband, as someone that's active in the community.

The other 10% or 20% percent will be about a case that our firm handled, a verdict that we obtained, maybe commenting from a legal perspective, newsjacking of breaking a legal news story.

That ratio for me has worked very well, but I'm unique, in other words, as a lawyer people want a lawyer who can get the job done. They want to know that you know how to win a case.

It's a little bit different than selling widgets, and I get that. In fact, I was talking to Chris Brogan about this and for those of you that don't follow Chris Brogan on social, he is a very well-known blogger and a business consultant.

And Chris pointed out that as a lawyer, maybe as a doctor, maybe as an accountant, you can raise the bar on that 10% or 20% to maybe 50%, 60%, 70% because people want to know that if they're going to hire you, you've got the credibility, the ability, the expertise to get the job done.

Now having said all that, I still like to back that ratio down to 10% or 20%.

By doing that, I think what happens is you build trust, you build trust as a human being.

When you build trust as a human being and there's somebody in New York that needs good legal counsel in California, what happens is they'll pick up the phone, they'll call you, they'll message on Facebook, maybe DM you on Twitter, because they trust that if you can help the referral you will.

But they also trust the fact that if it's not up my wheelhouse as a lawyer, I'll refer them to somebody in town that will take extremely good care of that individual.

So it's an interesting dance.

I think if you're selling a downloadable product, if you're an author selling books and things like that, you have to balance sharing these pictures of you on stage to develop credibility with adding valuable, useful content that is going to help your audience.

The only way you can figure out what's going to help your audience is to really spend less time talking about yourself and more time asking open-ended questions, whether it's in blog post, whether it's in live videos, whether it's in a tweet, and listen to what your audience is talking about.

What's of interest to them and how can you then step in and provide them with an exemplary client experience, based upon who you are, what you do and at all times keeping your why in mind and in the picture.

That's the formula that works.

RF: And listening to that backstory of your view on that process makes me really understand more of why the live streaming platform works.

Because if you think about it, when you're on a live platform, there's a communication path that is not available in a one-sided post.

It's in real time, there's this authenticity to it, you're at the beach, you're somewhere, like,

"Hey, I'm like maybe sweaty or not, but here's this thing that I want to share with you."

Live streaming seems to really lend itself to that authenticity, but at the same time, being like,

"I just happened to be here on this stage, that's not really the point, my point is ______ ."

But you've got the fact that you're on stage and it comes across less humble braggy but more authentic In your explanation, I can really see how it mends with you being known as the live streaming lawyer.

MJ: So let me jump in, it's the authenticity of the whole process.

In other words, earlier in our conversation, you talked about somebody standing in front of a rented jet or leased home, and I get that.

But no, you don't want to be that guy or gal that's just putting out content to try to make yourself look good, that when it's all said and done and somebody pulls back the curtain, you're not being truthful, you're actually not doing the right thing because you're putting out misleading information.

So for example, I love speaking and if I am at a convention, I love to pre-promote that convention, I like to share live videos or traditional video from the stage. And then afterward, I like to pump up the convention.

It's fun to do, I think as long as you do that, where you're not talking about you but you're talking about the people you've met, the purpose behind the convention and all the good things that particular organization is doing, that to me is what it's all about.

But, Ryan, it takes years to figure this stuff out, right.

I mean, the older I get the wiser I get, and I'll just leave it at that.

RF: Well, what I like about that is that there are so many people who are maybe self-identified as older, but they are thinking that they can't get caught up or they are behind the times.

It's a great example that the older you get and the more chance you have to see that algorithms and changes, and the new platforms, and the things that live, and the things that die.

These are all tools that everyone, millennials to gen X to old farts alike, we can leverage these to create a stronger message within these platforms, to create the trust, to create these relationships, and that ultimately is how it seems you get on stage.

You get these relationships where you come top of mind when somebody needs help with a certain thing.

Whether it's a client like you referenced in New York who needs a trial attorney in California, or a conference that's across the world and they're trying to find what they can find and you just keep coming to that top of mind.

MJ: Top of mind is so critically important and social and digital has been the best platforms that I've ever come across that allows you to build top of mind awareness in a proper way on a global basis.

I just love using social for that reason. Now having said all that, reputation is everything.

You've got to be careful on social media to always make sure you're doing the right thing.

If you do one bad mistake in life, in business, on social, it can really destroy everything.

And so you want to really be strategically, like I said transparent about what you post, how you go about posting things and always make sure to fact check, to do your due diligence before, for example jumping into a business with somebody else or bringing somebody else up on stage with you.

Do your homework and make sure you're doing the right thing and you are shining the spotlight on the right people.

Because I will tell you, Ryan, one of the things I've noticed about social media is that it easily allows the digital foxes to get into the digital hen houses.

Anyone can click and open up a free account and tell the world their next word about something and take your money and it's only after the fact that you realize they're full of crap and that you need a good lawyer.

So one of my takeaways with social media is, I love the platforms, but consumers need to do the due diligence— be careful with how you set up your businesses, be careful about setting up a business on social media and especially in the digital platforms.

Use offline business tools, corporations, limited liability companies, proper documentation to protect your rights, to protect your customers' rights and treat your social media online businesses and experiences in a professional fashion.

And when you do that, that's where the magic happens.

And that's what I preach about all the time and that's how I get on stage at a lot of the big social media events.

Most of the people in the audience are doing business online or they're thinking about doing business online, or frankly, their social media agencies representing brands and connecting them with influencers.

Think about all the legal issues involved with everything I just said.

And so what I try to do is just share some really basic, easy to understand, legal in business principles with members in the audience to help them do all of that safely.

To avoid becoming the next Fyre Festival, and for those listeners out there that are not familiar with that, Google it, because it's an eye-opener.

There are a right and a wrong way to do business online and so I think that's been my niche, is being that lawyer who has come around respects the online process but also maybe has some good tips to share with the audience.

RF: We'll leave it as a true lawyer to end with a solid disclaimer to just basically put us all on guard that it is about being authentic, but also CYA and make sure that that authenticity is real, whether it's you or your business partners or people.

Because things can move very fast in the online world, but unless you're structured in an offline capacity to protect yourself, it could be dangerous.

MJ: I could not have said it any better.

Why don't we wrap things up with a famous quote by Mark Twain, relevant to what you and I just said?

What Mr. Twain once said was, "Do the right thing, it will gratify some people and astonish the rest."

RF: Awesome.

You can't do that unless you're out there sharing your why and whether it's 80-20, whether it's 50-50, there's a way to integrate what you do and the message that you want to share in a way that comes across as truthful, as authentic.

And at the end of the day, you're just up there telling your story in bite-sized bits so that all the squirrels who are listening will pay attention long enough to get to understand what you want to share.

MJ: Amin.

RF: Well, hey Mitch, this has been a blast.

I'm looking forward to connecting with you online, hopefully, we'll share the stage some time, and I know who I'm going to when I need an attorney.

It's really been a pleasure and I'm excited to continue to do this damn thing, get up there and spread the message and all that.

MJ: Well, we're going to do it in real life, just hit up the road from my office so I just plan on grabbing dinner or lunch sometime in the near future, my friend.

RF: Rocking, sounds good.

Alright, everybody and you can have a virtual dinner or virtual lunch with Mitch, just find him on some of his live streams and that's how cool things are.

All right, if you enjoyed this episode, definitely leave a comment, a review, share this with other people because it's sharing because you're caring that makes the world go round.

This is Ryan and Mitch and we are signing out.

Adios!

 

A bit about World of Speakers

World of Speakers is a bi-weekly podcast that helps people find their own voice, and teaches them how to use their voice to develop a speaking business.

We cover topics like: what works versus what doesn't, ideas on how to give memorable presentations, speaking tips, and ideas on how to build a speaking business.

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